Curse

Rob Roy The Divine · Sep 01, 2011, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

AB isn't real PvP most of the time because of the mobbing and the triple nuking of shrines, spirit camping, and defy pain warriors.

if it's not pvp, why is there other human players on the other team?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

I think what it boils down to is whether you have the patience to be good, whether it is PvP or PvE. That's not even counting people that can't play builds properly or stand in AoEs.

sorry, i've played the game for 4 years and i'm still terrible at weapon swapping and kiting. i've seen top players die in aoe cause they wanted to kill something, or dying to npc in bases because they forget what skills they have. and these are players that have won multiple gold capes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

In smaller formats such as RA or TA, every mistake is amplified compared to AB (unless it's 4-4-4). If your WoH gets d-shotted by pure luck, then it's "o s---". For damage dealers, larger formats are more important for practice since 2 monks and a rit flagger do much more to mitigate than 1 heal monk.

the amount of times i've gotten my WoH dshot in 4v4 is a lot less than when i've played 8v8. also in smaller arenas you have more "power" heals like patient spirit, and you also have a lot more defence with dual stances etc. so losing WoH isn't as game changing as losing maybe RC or infuse in a gvg.

Gli · Sep 01, 2011, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Roy The Divine

a 2/3 minute wait is nothing, you can talk to your teammates, go on youtube, go on forums, stalk friends on facebook. if you can't occupy yourself for 2 minutes on the internet, you need help.

I don't want to spend most of the precious time I have available for gaming on arranging get-togethers, coordinating builds, staring at countdown timers, going on youtube or facebook, or whatever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Roy The Divine

anyone complaining about wait time clearly has no patience and needs to learn that when you press a button things dont happen automatically.

That's not something you need to learn. That's something you either will or will not put up with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Roy The Divine

30s wait is how long you wait in a que for a cup of coffee, if not longer. If you honestly don't have the mental capabilities to wait 30s for something, then again you need help.

If I have to wait for coffee, but there's another drink available that I also enjoy and won't have to wait for, I'll go for the other drink. It's not a matter of failing mental capabilities, it's a matter of investment vs. reward. Anyone who can't see that other people might have other priorities and preferences... "needs help".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Roy The Divine

Half of the people that have replied on this thread have probably never played AB properly with 2/3 friends.

I played a lot of AB during one of the Factions previews, when you didn't need to party up for it. That was pretty awesome. Tried it after Factions came out and found it to be too much bother. I still think it's a shame they made that change. Oh well, there's still costume brawl, a few days a year.

LifeInfusion · Sep 01, 2011, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Roy The Divine

if it's not pvp, why is there other human players on the other team?

sorry, i've played the game for 4 years and i'm still terrible at weapon swapping and kiting. i've seen top players die in aoe cause they wanted to kill something, or dying to npc in bases because they forget what skills they have. and these are players that have won multiple gold capes.

the amount of times i've gotten my WoH dshot in 4v4 is a lot less than when i've played 8v8. also in smaller arenas you have more "power" heals like patient spirit, and you also have a lot more defence with dual stances etc. so losing WoH isn't as game changing as losing maybe RC or infuse in a gvg.

When people AoE the shrines and run around not even having any contact with the other human teams... I don't call that real PvP.

You might be terrible at weapon swapping/kiting, but it's still better than people sitting in 40/40 sets eating melee damage. At least you know what it is and how to do it. It's pretty much guaranteed that top players know, but they may have a temporary lapse (or the last hit killing an NPC may be more important than getting out of AoE?).

GvG itself has gotten more fast-paced than before. We have bigger heals, bigger damage, less risk. Compare an Invoke Lightning elementalist to a 2005 Chain lightning /lightning orb flagger. Or Healing Burst compared to the old Blessed Light and Boon Prot. Or any warrior to a current Dervish. Builds were more flexible then, but they had less power. They arguably were harder to play well (lol monk energy management in the form of Offering of Blood/Mantra of Recall ; warriors on frenzy compared to Dervish ; Ether Prodigy eles were reliant in energy swapping more than any ele build we have now unless you want to eat buckets of self inflicted damage; Powerblock mesmers compared to the Energy surge stuff).

When I say 4v4 amplifies mistakes I mean that your teammates are less able to cover for you. Going to tell your warrior to lineback in RA/AB is rare if even seen at all. Having Bonetti's /Balanced/Disciplined/Shield Bash is useless against mesmers and marginally useful against air eles.

Andemius · Sep 01, 2011, 03:17 PM // 15:17

I do agree with some of what the OP is saying. I enjoy Low end PvP, AB, JQ, FA (and to a lesser extent codex). It seems more rewarding to me than doing PvE over and over. However, PvE is still fun if you have an organised group, on vent or mumble, doing say an elite area.

My problem with this is, I (and I assume there are some who share my view) don't want to try doing HA/Non-Alliance Codex/GvG just to be called a noob and be told to go back to PvE.

Now I know that playing with guildmates would help solve this, but unless you're in a PvP oriented guild, you'll struggle to organize and find people who want to seriously try higher end pvp.

As for AB/JQ not being "real PvP"... PvP is player versus player... The other team is players, so are you. GvG has just as many NPCs as JQ

Malice Black · Sep 01, 2011, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Do what I did, have someone farm your rank for you. I can just walk around HA spamming my tiger until I get picked.

Money has it's advantages

jazilla · Sep 01, 2011, 03:37 PM // 15:37

I have enjoyed both OP. Your language is pretty aggressive too. One of the reasons people want to play PvE is that they get to play co-operatively with people they like. I also agree with your statement that a LOT of people get turned off by elitism from the GW PvP community. I will mention some things you forgot to mention as well: botting, smurfing, griefing, syncing, quitters in RA, long wait times in AB, FA, JQ etc. For every reason you give to play PvP there are reasons not to play it. I never fault my friends that PvE only for not trying out PvP more.

Flameseeker · Sep 01, 2011, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Roy The Divine

also, i love how all the pve players are more stuck up than most casual pvp players. i tried to join a speedclear or something the other day after 2 years of no pve, and nobody would take me on their team cause i never had a pve skill or something. seriously? also why do i need like 1000 summoning stones to show that i've done something before?

Of course if you go straight to the SC community you'll get shut down for not meeting their requirements (even if they're ridiculous as stones can be bought).
Speed Clears are done to maximize efficiency by means that require particular setups and experience in what you're doing.
If you don't play PvE in 2 years and don't have PvE skills you're just probably slowing them down or making them fail even if you know the zone very well (not mentioning pugs have already a greater chance of failing due to failure in communications).

Just do it like me, if you don't like them just don't play with them, and that's one of the reasons i don't SC any more.

mattybadger · Sep 01, 2011, 03:48 PM // 15:48

What would make people who consider themselves a PVE'er get interested in PvP?

In response to some previous posts I don't see why people should be taken out of their "comfort zone" if they don't want to. It is a game, games are meant to be fun. I think more emphasis that working and improving with a bunch of individuals is quite fun is more likely to help.

Jeydra · Sep 01, 2011, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

I've done fow, uw, doa and eotn dungeons. I've steered clear of these so-called speed clears and so I may not be a "high end pve'er" like yourself, but I do have quite a lot of experience in pve.

No, you do not. You think you have quite a lot of experience in PvE, just like Borat thinks he's one of the best GvG players around. But he is not, and neither are you. There's a whole lot more to PvE, including plain having fun, but since you only care about the competitive aspects of it then here's a list of what competitive PvE really is like. Tell me how many of these you can truthfully answer "yes" to.

1. Have you ever done UW HM 7H with no cons?
2. Have you ever done Ooze Pit HM solo in less than 6 minutes?
3. Have you ever done endless 20 minute runs to Plains and Wastes to test a new UW strategy?
4. Have you ever spent 2 hours slaving through UW HM and then get wiped in less than 2 minutes by Dhuum?
5. Have you ever done and redone a mission with minor build tweaks to see just how fast you can get it to be?
6. Do you know how to get monsters to ball around a tank?

I can safely say you have not, to most of these questions. You can pretend you're experienced at PvE the same way Borat can pretend he's experienced at GvG. But after all is said and done, you are wrong, and you cannot claim that PvP is "the best part of GW" and better than PvE because you have no ****ing idea what high-end PvE is like.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Roy The Divine

also, i love how all the pve players are more stuck up than most casual pvp players. i tried to join a speedclear or something the other day after 2 years of no pve, and nobody would take me on their team cause i never had a pve skill or something. seriously? also why do i need like 1000 summoning stones to show that i've done something before? you mock players needing titles to pvp, then wont let players join pve groups cause htey dont want to spend 40 hours maxing a title?

Here's another post that really gets on my nerves. The comparison is so patently unfair that I have to shake my head in wonder. "All" PvE players are more "stuck up" than casual PvP players?? Have you any idea how many casual PvE players there are out there? Do you know that there are plenty of guilds that will take you along for a UW clear, even though they may actually fail, they actually have fun doing it? There are waaaaay more casual PvE players than there are casual PvP players, and there are waaaaay more "stuck up" PvP players by proportion than there are "stuck up" PvE players. Of course you could compare the serious PvE players to the casual PvP players, except that would be a joke, as much a joke as comparing casual PvE players to serious PvP players. Hey guys, that R12 guy won't let me into his party, do I have to do something (i.e. win Halls) 1000 times before he accepts me?

PvP players should stay out of PvE discussions, and vice versa. You can comment on PvE, just don't act all authoritative about it.

doomfodder · Sep 01, 2011, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

This is a large problem. People have tried to post IGNs, but that isn't going to work; most everyone already has their friends list maxed out. Unfortunately there are no custom channels or anything in-game (hey anet, WoW has this) that could be populated by PvP players looking for pug groups. Standing in outpost advertising for PvP groups is simply a waste. Other than having people on your friends list, being in a PvP guild/alliance, there is no in-game way to organize. We've been fighting this for years.

There have been a few attempts at an irc channel, but it is currently deserted and has been so for a long time. People don't want to use anything outside of the game to organize.

Couldn't agree more!!!

I PvP around 75% & PvE around 25% (mostly farming - zoins, cons/mats). I play RA multiple times per week. I play FA JQ AB pretty much ONLY on event days/weekends. Why? Because there's virtually no wait time to play. Would I like to HA & GvG? YES! Do I try to join PUGS for HA? Yes. Is it successful? Rarely. Do I try to get guest invites during GvG events? Yes. Is that tactic successful? Only or twice in 3 years.

So why haven't I organized a friends list of players that will accept me into those 2 venues? Cause like most things in life, it's not who you know, it's who knows you. All you can do as an individual is make/create the opportunity. It's analagous to getting a job. You can create the resume, submit the application, get the interview... but you don't GET the job unless SOMEONE ELSE hires you! HA & GvG team forming serve to fuction in this manner because it REQUIRES organization. Some call it "elitism". In reality it's the structure that ANET created.

ANET can't fix this issue! They tried with Embark beach to create an outpost where everyone would go to look for anything. Players don't use it. Is that ANET's fault? Not really. ONLY the player base can solve this problem! We need "as a group" to use an outpost (IN GAME FORMAT) to organize. Can ANET assist the player base by putting message in login screens to motivate people to use it? Yes. Will players use it if it's "advertized"? One can only hope.

Think of it this way, if you want a dungeon run, which outpost do you sit in and LFG dungeon run? Answer: Doomlore. Why there? Because it's common knowledge that runners advertise there. If you wanna sell/buy something, where do you go? Smapadan. Why? Because it's common knowledge. The crux is, how does the player base create common knowledge of an outpost for team forming in those "elitist venues"?

side note to Pugging HA.... If your lucky, sitting in HA ID1 spamming LFG might only take 1/2 hr to get picked up on a PUG that will probably lose & the team breaks up. Why? Because when you play in that organized venue AS A PUG, my experience (PUGGING around 750 HA matches with only 175 fame) has shown that I generally lose. The loss happens because individual player "skill" is less important when on a PUG than the communication that is afforded an organized team (non-PUG). When you lose, it's not generally only because of you. When you win, it's not generally only because of you.

haviz · Sep 01, 2011, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

You're probably not going to be quarterknocking patient spirit if you only played 50 hours total.

Not really true. Before my break from GW, qknocking was known only to the best players. After I returned, I learned that most warriors can, at least in theory, achieve qknock. So I had to learn that trick and it took me about 5 minutes to reliably qknock (didn't have to be perfect) with either hammer or axe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

AB isn't real PvP most of the time because of the mobbing and the triple nuking of shrines, spirit camping, and defy pain warriors.
...
In smaller formats such as RA or TA, every mistake is amplified compared to AB (unless it's 4-4-4)

There are many AB guilds that take this format very seriously. Their skill level far surpasses that of your usual RA player. It's mostly because they are actually former TA players that slightly adjusted their playstyle from TA to AB (ie. from running pressure builds to mostly spike-type build). Beating them on fair square 4v4 or with some minor help from proper usage of shrines to your advantage is greatly rewarding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

No, you do not. You think you have quite a lot of experience in PvE, just like Borat thinks he's one of the best GvG players around. But he is not, and neither are you. There's a whole lot more to PvE, including plain having fun, but since you only care about the competitive aspects of it then here's a list of what competitive PvE really is like. Tell me how many of these you can truthfully answer "yes" to.

1. Have you ever done UW HM 7H with no cons?
2. Have you ever done Ooze Pit HM solo in less than 6 minutes?
3. Have you ever done endless 20 minute runs to Plains and Wastes to test a new UW strategy?
4. Have you ever spent 2 hours slaving through UW HM and then get wiped in less than 2 minutes by Dhuum?
5. Have you ever done and redone a mission with minor build tweaks to see just how fast you can get it to be?
6. Do you know how to get monsters to ball around a tank?

I can safely say you have not, to most of these questions. You can pretend you're experienced at PvE the same way Borat can pretend he's experienced at GvG. But after all is said and done, you are wrong, and you cannot claim that PvP is "the best part of GW" and better than PvE because you have no ****ing idea what high-end PvE is like.

He said he might have not been high-end pve so I don't know why your reply got that aggresive tone. Maybe his starting paragraphs was too much for many guruposters, but his right about it if you look at it from this angle:
in PvE you win 90%, in ideal PvP it's only 50%.

I, myself, have done a lot in PvE, including getting GWAMM (nothing special these days apparently, but still) but I don't even consider myself PvE player. PvE is like a distraction from more serious PvP at least, for me.

Also, OP doesn't want a situation where PvE players go to try high-end PvP. He gave advice how to start learning ropes in more friendly-to-casuals PvP mode, like AB. I know many people won't even call it PvP cause of its alleged mobbing/nuking shrines/whatever else, but it's still better place to learn PvP than in RA which is atm cesspool and the recent update hasn't changed anything in that matter.

Lanier · Sep 01, 2011, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iuris

All too often we see threads with titles "Why don't people play PvP?" "PvP is dieing!" and similar. Including a recent one that was particularly ill conceived. All too often, these show a real lack of understanding of reasons why some people don't like to play PvP.

Here, I would like to point out at least some reasons why people don't like to play PvP, and some false conceptions that PvP players have about them.

-PvP rarely has a story behind it. The games are usually made abstract, maps symmetric, with rarely a reason provided for the happenings. Now, remember - GW is still an RPG, and many people do appreciate the story and immersion it offers. To these, PvP is, even all other aside, "bland". Note the overlap between Fort Aspenwood and Jade quarry, where such players (me included) actually can enjoy a bit of PvP.

-Players generally play games to relax while having fun. To spend some nice easy, relaxing time. PvP is not really receptive to this - it's an adrenaline fueled experience where you are constantly on the edge. Certainly NOT the place to relax. It's actually tiring. I have a job to tire me out, thank you.

-Linking to the above is the fact that PvP is hard. A new PvP player enters the arena where everyone else is already much more experienced. His first visits WILL end in series of defeats. Frustration sets in soon, and eventually the new PvP player will realize that the feeling of winning will require much hard work. Hard work? Wait a second, don't I already have a job for that? One I actualyl get money for?

-Some people are simply not competitive and would much prefer cooperation. PvP may simply go against their very nature.

-PvP "attitude". No matter how much people will deny it, the general PvP player attitude can be best described as "condescending". "PvP is the real game!" "Stop sucking!" "There's no playing for fun, only playing to win!". The terms "Scrub" and "Carebear". You know what they mean, because they are used ALL THE TIME. It doesn't matter if YOU personally don't, too many others do that that is the real attitude a PvE player faces.

-Solicitations from PvP players trying to get people to play PvP often feel like the PvP people are just looking for more newbies to abuse. "I need more fresh meat for me to slaughter!".

So, PvP guys, please realize that no matter how much you preach to the choir, you won't get converts. You are already talking to people who know they are carebears and scrubs AND PROUD OF IT!

This is one of the best posts that I have seen on this forum in awhile (from a few pages back in this thread). I wanted to bring it up again because it really does point out the most common reasons that I see as being the reasons why more people don't PvP. As I have already stated, points 2 and 4 in this post (along with time constraints, which is not addressed) are the reasons why I dont play competitive PvP.

I also wanted to say that the comparison with internet gaming and sports on the prior page is completely rediculous. One requires intense (and painful) training in quickness, speed, endurance, and strength. The other one requires lots of time spent in front of a computer looking at pixels while exercising your fingers and wrists.

gremlin · Sep 01, 2011, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

Quite the contrary my friend. In order to succeed in pvp having a minimum of social skills is fundamental. Who would want to play with a person that goes on a rage-spree every night? Succeeding in pvp requires teamwork and ability to adjust to your team. No social skills needed?!

My comment about social skills was not aimed at the pvp community it was a bit of a dig at your controversial style of posting.
Reading through your post again and the replies I have been working out why I do not pvp.

Firstly as I said I am a role player I do not have toons I have characters with a history and strengths and weaknesses.
So pvp is not really my thing unless there was a role playing reason to do it part of the storyline if you will.

The other reason for not playing pvp is It is a frustrating and ultimately disappointing exercise.
pvp needs a decent learning arena a place where players can find their feet make mistakes learn from them and hopefully get better.

Those so called experts should be playing in a different league one which we will join when we think we are ready.
What we do not need is a bunch of self styled know it alls "not you btw" who demand that everything shall be done their way.

Friends I know and trust have a right to advise me on builds and play styles others do not.
It is only by making mistakes that I can lean to be good at pvp taking someone else's build and playing it how they say it should be played makes me second rate.

The "experts" inhabit pve too and its mostly why many players go solo these days.
They are not doing it to be anti social they are trying to enjoy the game and avoid the truly anti social players who having gained a little knowledge think they are better than everyone else and spoil the game.

Man W/ Club · Sep 01, 2011, 05:42 PM // 17:42

I agree that players should garner some interest in PvP. The problem is the 'casual' excuse.

IMO calling yourself casual is just another excuse for your own ignorance. It's typical in Western Society, and it is called the 'not in my backyard' problem. If it doesn't affect you directly then you don't care, even if you can make a change for the better.

Now the other side of the story, is elitism. Some kid yelling in RA doesn't bother me cuz I really don't care what artards online say, but for new players to PvP who are looking for advice, well, toughen up, read some guides, it's the internet.

Another reason is older players are less competitive. Most teens want to play fighting games and beat the snot out of each other. I don't understand older people because they seem to want to sit back and relax when playing a video game.

My version of sitting back and relaxing is my social life and the real world. I play video games for the adrenaline rush that I cannot experience IRL because you cannot go around cutting people with a sword.

The problem with all this is an unstoppable force (pvp elitism) meets an unmovable object (stubborn casual scrubbery). The only result of this is flame and rage. Ranger using WoH, RAGE.

In the end both extremes screw things up. People need to chill out and try different things. Don't be forced into something, but don't live in your own box. Try for moderation.

haviz · Sep 01, 2011, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Man W/ Club

-snip-

It's more like "I don't like losing". In PvP, someone has to lose so others will be victorious. There's a reason why all those new games are much easier than they were in past and why the easiest difficulty setting is usually called 'casual' unlike simple 'easy'.

Reverend Dr · Sep 01, 2011, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

ANET can't fix this issue! They tried with Embark beach to create an outpost where everyone would go to look for anything. Players don't use it. Is that ANET's fault?

Strictly speaking no, but embark beach just doesn't have the features necessary to facilitate formation. Organizing via voip, guild/alliance, f-list allows someone to do something else at the same time; whether that be a mission, vanquishing, farming, RA, etc. With embark beach you have to physically stand in embark beach, which limits your options to near nothing. A 30 minute set-up time while one is off playing the game is a lot less significant than a 30 minute set-up time where all you can do is look for people. This reason alone is why Embark Beach (or any other in-game location) won't work without an overhaul of chat channels and functions (such as the user created global WoW channels).

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

side note to Pugging HA.

As my side note: don't. This, and I would go as far as to say this alone, is where the "elitist jerk" stereotype of PvP players has come from. I've said this many times, but it seems to just fall upon deaf ears. By far most of the people that are forming PuG groups there are doing so because no one wants to play with them; people in the PvP community actively avoid them. I am rank 10, I can get into these groups based on my rank, but I never do; I already know that I do not want to play with those groups.

MithranArkanere · Sep 01, 2011, 07:52 PM // 19:52

I only play PvP for fun, ever since I joined attracted by the PvP free weekends.
I don't care about winning or losing as much as just having fun.
But in competitive gameplay, the higher you get, the less fun it becomes.

But I get bored after a while when I see everyone bringing the same builds and doing the same things as if they had the same AI. It was fun when they added new skills and people started trying new things... until the meta settled and people started using the same OP builds.
And it¡s fun to see how some things change with each flux... until the meta settlement happens again.

That's why I prefer "random join" and "random party" and I would even like to see "random builds" that you don't get to choose, but are given to you instead.
It makes things change more often, and people can't bring that 'perfect team' they have calculated.
A good swordsman shouldn't get worse if he has to use a sword that isn't his.
A good CS:S shouldn't get worse when he was to use a any but his favorite gun.
A good GW player shouldn't be bad just because they have to use a build they didn't chose.

I think I will probably play much, much more in WvW than in PvP in GW2. And more than I have played in GW1.

Gli · Sep 01, 2011, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Man W/ Club

I agree that players should garner some interest in PvP. The problem is the 'casual' excuse.

IMO calling yourself casual is just another excuse for your own ignorance. It's typical in Western Society, and it is called the 'not in my backyard' problem. If it doesn't affect you directly then you don't care, even if you can make a change for the better.

This is possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on a gaming forum.

Calling people ignorant for not caring about a certain facet of an obscure little corner of a six year old game? The irony is staggering.

icedwhitemocha · Sep 01, 2011, 09:41 PM // 21:41

For the record, AB does have a good level of competition depending on the hours you play. A lot of people have "retired" there from GvG/HA/TA in search of something relaxed but still, idk, interesting.

aspi · Sep 01, 2011, 09:50 PM // 21:50

It's just I don't like the pvp part of GW. It's boring and no fun at all for me. I always enjoyed pvp in fps games like unreal/quake. Quite difficult to compare but pvp nonetheless.